In Yahya Snow’s rebuttal he brings up a number of points to prove that Islam was not demonically inspired. I will just assess one of these points on this thread.
Yahya said that Islam teaches belief in Jesus and belief in Abrahamaic monotheism; Yahya then argues that Satan would never convey such teaching to anyone and hence Islam can only come from God himself.
There are a number of fallacies with these two assumptions.
Firstly according to the Epistle of James, simple belief in the God of Abraham is not sufficient and does not constitute true religion unless accompanied by certain actions, which together constitute genuine faith (James 2: 18-19).
Two points within this passage are vital of consideration:
1) simple faith in monotheism is not sufficient
2) faith has to be genuine and accompanied by certain deeds.
These deeds are the once you will find if you read e.g. the Sermon on the Mountain (the Gospel of Matthew 5-7 and e.g. James 1: 26-27) in which a number of elements clearly contradict the ethical teachings of the Qur’an. Hence according to James 2 Muslims who claim to believe in the God of Abraham and follow the Qur’an to the core will not escape hell-fire.
Let me point out one example from your youtube rebuttal and compare it with the standard found within the epistle of James.
In your rebuttal I was made the bad guy because I reacted to the rape, torture and death of Christian girl. I expounded upon my reaction since Islam clearly teaches that Christians are to be attacked, suppressed, humiliated, not be trusted and are the worst of all creatures.
Hence, no Muslim can be in his right mind if he expects me to glorify, respect or embrace the Islamic faith. Try to ask a Palestinian to recognise and respect the Nation of Israel or a Jew to embrace the rule of Nazi Germany.
You worry because I reacted with one sentence about the religion of Islam. Yet you do not seem to worry when Muslims react with violence against non-Muslims for silly things such as some cartoons or a Qur’an being desecrated. We Christians experience worse every day.
Furthermore, in your rebuttal no word was mentioned about the Christian girl, who was mutilated and eliminated; all that mattered was my reaction, which I believe was fully justified.
This is called ‘favouritism’! You favour your Muslim comrades and give a diamond when they cause such atrocities, you even call the reaction of those who speak out an act of misbehaviour and unwise.
In James 2: 8-9 we read:
‘If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbour as yourself,” you are doing right. But if you show favouritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as law-breakers’
Now consider this Yahya. According to James chapter two, your faith in the God of Abraham only, will not save you from hell. Furthermore, you have even broken the law that is to accompany it, proving that your faith in Abraham’s God is not genuine or that the religion you follow now, which teaching contrary to God true Law is not genuine.
Notice also that in James 5: 1-6 there is a curse upon those who undermine, suppress and exploit others. Well the Qur’an teaches Muslims not to trust Christians or Jews, to attack them, suppress and treat them harshly. Hence based upon the epistle of James Islam is not from God and is correctly categorized as the influence of evil spirits (take a look at James 3:13-18 which describes to kinds of wisdoms and their nature).
But there is more. You say that Islam cannot be demonically inspired because it teaches belief in Abrahamic Monotheism and belief in Jesus.
However, Jesus condemned a number of Jews who believed in Abrahamic monotheism and in him and even categorized them as children of the devil:
‘To the Jews who had believed in him, Jesus said: “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”’ (John 8: 31-32).
Yet in verse 44 he says:
‘You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your fathers desire’
These were Jews, believing in the God of Abraham, believing in Jesus. Yet these followed will of the devil.
Notice that in the Qur’an, you are clearly permitted multiple wives, your are permitted to divorce these, you are permitted concubines (females captured in war), you are commanded to attack polytheists, Christians and Jews because of their faith and to suppress them, you are told not to trust Christians or Jews and consider them the worst of creatures.
Try to compare this with the teaching of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 5.
The fact is: you can believe all you want in Abrahamic monotheism and in Jesus; yet not being a true follower of Jesus you will still adhere to a doctrine or a mindset that conforms to the desire of demonic nature and you will be eternally condemned. Notice, this the teaching of Jesus, not mine.
This is why in Matthew’s Gospel chapter seven, verse 21-23 Jesus will reject many so called believers who on the day of judgement will say: ‘Lord, Lord’.
Hence just believing in Jesus is not sufficient, you need to repent and devout your life to his standard.
I have noticed that Muslims frequently use this passage in Matthew 7 as a means to argue that these are Christians who call him Lord and hence are rejected for their belief in his divinity. Yet this is not at all what the passage is teaching. Notice that verse 21 says ‘not everyone who comes to me’, in other words not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord’ is rejected. Notice also that verse 21 further speaks about doing the Father’s will and verse 23 speaks of evildoers. Hence the passage states that anyone whether Muslim or a so called Christian who does not live in accordance of Jesus’ standard will not be spared on the day of judgement (read the First Epistle of John more on this).
Thus being a Muslim who adheres to the Qur’an you are not in the category that follows the teaching of Jesus.
Jesus even rebuked the teachers of the monotheist Law. Look at Matthew 23 and Luke 11: 37-54. These teachers in the Law all followed Abrahamic monotheism strictly. In Luke 11, these teachers of the Law even seem to respect Jesus and ate with him; yet Luke 11 he curses these experts in monotheism; in verse 52 he says:
‘Woe to you experts in the Law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourself have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.’
So try to imagine this: even monotheistic law teachers who believe in Jesus do not have the key to knowledge and are not entering the heavenly bliss.
Another vital passage, which I have brought up in our discussion before is Mark 8: 31-33. Jesus shares with his disciples that he will killed and rise again (verse 31).
Peter opposes this future event (verse 32),
As a response Jesus says to Peter:
‘Get behind me Satan!...you do not have in mind the things of God but the things of men.’
We all know that Islam and the Qur’an denies the crucifixion and death of Jesus, yet according to
Jesus’ teaching denying his death is evidence of demonic inspiration and relates to the human mind not the mind of God.
Hence based upon Jesus’ words in the earliest Gospel, the Qur’an contains demonic inspiration and is composed by the influence of humans. Again this is based upon the teaching of Jesus not me.
This correlates with a phrase in the Epistle of James chapter 3, verse 15, which describes the standard of Christianity versus standard that falls short of it (of which the Qur’an is a typical example):
‘Such wisdom does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil’
Is it possible based upon this, that the Islam is not from God but is a human religion inspired by demonic forces?
I will let the reader decide.
See more on: http://christianityresponse.blogspot.com/
Wednesday, 10 February 2010
Tuesday, 9 February 2010
My Written Response to Yahya: Do I Misbehave For Believing Islam to be Demonic?
I will respond in writing to Yahya's written words here. My Youtube response to his youtube will come later.
Let me just say that I intend in no way to attack Yahya Snow personally by my wording here, even though they might come out harsh. I hope we can in future continue our dialogue. Yet I know his view represents the view of the majority of Muslims, hence I defend myself not against so much Yahya but against the common view of Islam.
First of all me believing that Islam is demonic is not to be deemed as misbehavior. If I went out on the street to riot against Islam, kill and burn their houses or instigate violence against Muslims, yes that would be misbehaviour. Me holding to the view that Christianity is the truth and what contradicts it being a lie and hence from the devil is not misbehaviour; you need to utilize a different vocabulary here.
Furthermore, what would you say about the Hindu religion? The Hindu religion certainly expresses itself by the supernatural!
Would you agree with me that such forces are demonic or from God?
If you agree with me ought you not correctly to describe yourself as misbehaving. Yet if you do not agree with me, then according to your standard you behave, but at the same time you welcome the forces obtained by paganism and idolatry.
Hence exposing falsehood is not tantamount to misbehaviour.
Why do I believe Islam to be demonic?
Well it contradicts the Christian faith. It supposedly is a revelation from Gabrial, which based upon Paul in Galatians one, would be a false angel, a demon.
That is of course unless Muhammad had no experience at all and merely along with others fabricated the Qur'an, which explains the high amount of ancient Greek science.
Furthermore, the Qur'an rejects the death of Jesus, which according to Mark's Gospel renders the Qur'an as from the devil (Mark 8: 31-33).
Do I need to continue?
It has to be my right as a human being, living in the West and being a Christian, to believe that Islam is not from God--without being portrayed as someone who misbehaves.
Furthermore, the comment you referred to, related to an event in Pakistan in which a 12 year old Christian girl was tortured to death. These attrocities are common in Muslim countries. The perpetrators ussually get away, and you know as well as I that such injustice is in accordance to the Sharia Law. Which is why I call the religion demonic.
You should not worry about me, following my right and my faith in not accepting the religion of Islam as divine. All Muslims reject the Christian faith I believe in as a corruption. Should that not worry us as well?
Secondly I reacted to the attrocities against my dear sister who was raped and tortured to death.
Considering, that Islam does not permit a Muslim to be punished to death for the murder of a Christian, but merely to pay some blood money (correct me if I am wrong) (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim) and that the Qur'an commands Muslims to attack the Christian and Jews and to fight them and to subjugate until they feel humiliated (Sura 9: 29) and to be harsh with the unbelievers (9: 123) and that Christians and Jews are the worst of all creatures (Sura 98: 6) and that Christians have no juridical right in the court system (Bukhari) then I fully understand why and how my sister was victimised in this way and why such attrocities are ussually acceptable and hardly ever condemned in the Muslim community (even in Britain)--I find that repulsive, worrying and demonic--if it is not, then what is it?
And why do I misbehave for considering such as wrong, repulsive and demonic (at least I can trace the possibility of such attrocites as acceptable to the Islamic wrings---that worries me).
So don't worry about me, a British Christian believing based upon his faith and the actions among Muslims linked to the writings in Islam that Islam in demonic and not from God.
I have my right to believe so, without being deemed evil or unwise.
Lets rather worry about these attrocities.
I have yet to see Muslims speak out against the attrocities that Muslims commit against non-Muslims in Muslim societies--I find that worrying, extremely worrying.
Since you encourage me to consider Nadir Ahmed in your reply, I think I am eligable to post you a link to Answering-Islam on these matters:
http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv4.html
You also say that I owe it to the Muslim communities in Bradford, Birmingham and London and their respective behaviour against me to be respectful and not declare that Islam is not of God or from the devil.
Now I am not sure whether you read my biography. I did live in Bradford for a while where I met the Muslims, I did express my opinions (they did), yet because I did I was publically insulted, intimitated and abused greatly, I had stones thrown after me. I sat in a Muslim home and was told that I could was not even allowed to ask indicative negative questions about Islam, even though they were allowed to attack my faith. At the same time they glorified the Islamic Regime in Sudan for being the most Godly based country in the world for following the Sharia. Think about it: Sudan, the country that has systematically butchered and genocided millions of Christians. A country in which my Christian brothers have been systematically shot, had their limbs cut of and often crucified. A land that has forced an estimate of half a million of my Christian sisters into slavery, either as concubines or sex slaves after their fathers, husbands and sons had been butchered.
You can imagine the insult on me a Christian, much like telling a Jew that Nazi Germany was the most examplary society in the world when it comes to moral, social and human conduct.
And how about Birmingham, my biography explains how Muslims attacked and insulted my faith openly on the street, without respect.
Do you really think I owe these communities anything, except to love them and expose falsehood and share the truth.
This was only a short written response, I will upload a youtube dealing with your youtube arguments.
I said I welcome criticism, but this critic has no logical basis; it begs me to accept the attrocities against my Christian family.
Hence I do not view my reaction as unwise or wrong, I stand up for the truth and those suffering who are forgotten and neglected due to Western political correctness.
If that means disrespecting those who propagate the faith behind this evil, I will gladly disrepect the religion, who wouldn't?
Let me just say that I intend in no way to attack Yahya Snow personally by my wording here, even though they might come out harsh. I hope we can in future continue our dialogue. Yet I know his view represents the view of the majority of Muslims, hence I defend myself not against so much Yahya but against the common view of Islam.
First of all me believing that Islam is demonic is not to be deemed as misbehavior. If I went out on the street to riot against Islam, kill and burn their houses or instigate violence against Muslims, yes that would be misbehaviour. Me holding to the view that Christianity is the truth and what contradicts it being a lie and hence from the devil is not misbehaviour; you need to utilize a different vocabulary here.
Furthermore, what would you say about the Hindu religion? The Hindu religion certainly expresses itself by the supernatural!
Would you agree with me that such forces are demonic or from God?
If you agree with me ought you not correctly to describe yourself as misbehaving. Yet if you do not agree with me, then according to your standard you behave, but at the same time you welcome the forces obtained by paganism and idolatry.
Hence exposing falsehood is not tantamount to misbehaviour.
Why do I believe Islam to be demonic?
Well it contradicts the Christian faith. It supposedly is a revelation from Gabrial, which based upon Paul in Galatians one, would be a false angel, a demon.
That is of course unless Muhammad had no experience at all and merely along with others fabricated the Qur'an, which explains the high amount of ancient Greek science.
Furthermore, the Qur'an rejects the death of Jesus, which according to Mark's Gospel renders the Qur'an as from the devil (Mark 8: 31-33).
Do I need to continue?
It has to be my right as a human being, living in the West and being a Christian, to believe that Islam is not from God--without being portrayed as someone who misbehaves.
Furthermore, the comment you referred to, related to an event in Pakistan in which a 12 year old Christian girl was tortured to death. These attrocities are common in Muslim countries. The perpetrators ussually get away, and you know as well as I that such injustice is in accordance to the Sharia Law. Which is why I call the religion demonic.
You should not worry about me, following my right and my faith in not accepting the religion of Islam as divine. All Muslims reject the Christian faith I believe in as a corruption. Should that not worry us as well?
Secondly I reacted to the attrocities against my dear sister who was raped and tortured to death.
Considering, that Islam does not permit a Muslim to be punished to death for the murder of a Christian, but merely to pay some blood money (correct me if I am wrong) (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim) and that the Qur'an commands Muslims to attack the Christian and Jews and to fight them and to subjugate until they feel humiliated (Sura 9: 29) and to be harsh with the unbelievers (9: 123) and that Christians and Jews are the worst of all creatures (Sura 98: 6) and that Christians have no juridical right in the court system (Bukhari) then I fully understand why and how my sister was victimised in this way and why such attrocities are ussually acceptable and hardly ever condemned in the Muslim community (even in Britain)--I find that repulsive, worrying and demonic--if it is not, then what is it?
And why do I misbehave for considering such as wrong, repulsive and demonic (at least I can trace the possibility of such attrocites as acceptable to the Islamic wrings---that worries me).
So don't worry about me, a British Christian believing based upon his faith and the actions among Muslims linked to the writings in Islam that Islam in demonic and not from God.
I have my right to believe so, without being deemed evil or unwise.
Lets rather worry about these attrocities.
I have yet to see Muslims speak out against the attrocities that Muslims commit against non-Muslims in Muslim societies--I find that worrying, extremely worrying.
Since you encourage me to consider Nadir Ahmed in your reply, I think I am eligable to post you a link to Answering-Islam on these matters:
http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv4.html
You also say that I owe it to the Muslim communities in Bradford, Birmingham and London and their respective behaviour against me to be respectful and not declare that Islam is not of God or from the devil.
Now I am not sure whether you read my biography. I did live in Bradford for a while where I met the Muslims, I did express my opinions (they did), yet because I did I was publically insulted, intimitated and abused greatly, I had stones thrown after me. I sat in a Muslim home and was told that I could was not even allowed to ask indicative negative questions about Islam, even though they were allowed to attack my faith. At the same time they glorified the Islamic Regime in Sudan for being the most Godly based country in the world for following the Sharia. Think about it: Sudan, the country that has systematically butchered and genocided millions of Christians. A country in which my Christian brothers have been systematically shot, had their limbs cut of and often crucified. A land that has forced an estimate of half a million of my Christian sisters into slavery, either as concubines or sex slaves after their fathers, husbands and sons had been butchered.
You can imagine the insult on me a Christian, much like telling a Jew that Nazi Germany was the most examplary society in the world when it comes to moral, social and human conduct.
And how about Birmingham, my biography explains how Muslims attacked and insulted my faith openly on the street, without respect.
Do you really think I owe these communities anything, except to love them and expose falsehood and share the truth.
This was only a short written response, I will upload a youtube dealing with your youtube arguments.
I said I welcome criticism, but this critic has no logical basis; it begs me to accept the attrocities against my Christian family.
Hence I do not view my reaction as unwise or wrong, I stand up for the truth and those suffering who are forgotten and neglected due to Western political correctness.
If that means disrespecting those who propagate the faith behind this evil, I will gladly disrepect the religion, who wouldn't?
Sunday, 7 February 2010
I Am Open to Toward Criticism
Yahya Snow posted on a previous thread that I had posted a very dissapointing comment on the blog: http://www.answeringmuslims.com/
I am not sure exactly what he refers to. I assume it's my reaction to Christians being persecuted.
Unfortunately I deleted Yahya's comment (instead of posting it here) since that particular thread concerned a seminar and those joining it only (I should have clarified that). I guess other issues might have interupted any flow of comments from participants after the seminar, and questions they might burn in with until the next session.
But I thought it appropriate that Yahya should be allowed to criticise me on any errors or faults (that is how we learn and I appreciate criticism), and then I will either defend myself or learn from the correction (or both). We could also clear this on the comment section of any other thread, but I thought: why not simply open a thread on it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edition to this thread (This information below is what Yahya referred to) I posted this as a response and reaction to a 12 year old Christian girl who had been raped, tortured and killed by Muslims.
So why do we Christians reaction with distress when we read this? Because this is common in Muslim countries. Muslims react with violence over some cartoons and a Qur'an that supposedly ended up in a toilet. But when we Christian react in distress when a little Christian girl is tortured to death, British Muslim get worried that we react. I find this odd and very very disturbing.
Before I respond to Yahya probably on Youtube, I will simply post the comment I made here:
This makes me absolutely mad
There are thousands of similar cases (in Pakistan alone) involving murder, torture and rape---you will all see, the perpetrators will walk free; Islam teaches that the blood of a Muslim is more valuable than that of a Christian
Its demonic
Well, the revenge belongs to the God, if justice is escaped yet again, fire and torture still awaits on the day of judgements
Let's just consider the facts as they are.
The comment was posted here:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6590312557191237519&postID=2267118858243851217
I am not sure exactly what he refers to. I assume it's my reaction to Christians being persecuted.
Unfortunately I deleted Yahya's comment (instead of posting it here) since that particular thread concerned a seminar and those joining it only (I should have clarified that). I guess other issues might have interupted any flow of comments from participants after the seminar, and questions they might burn in with until the next session.
But I thought it appropriate that Yahya should be allowed to criticise me on any errors or faults (that is how we learn and I appreciate criticism), and then I will either defend myself or learn from the correction (or both). We could also clear this on the comment section of any other thread, but I thought: why not simply open a thread on it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edition to this thread (This information below is what Yahya referred to) I posted this as a response and reaction to a 12 year old Christian girl who had been raped, tortured and killed by Muslims.
So why do we Christians reaction with distress when we read this? Because this is common in Muslim countries. Muslims react with violence over some cartoons and a Qur'an that supposedly ended up in a toilet. But when we Christian react in distress when a little Christian girl is tortured to death, British Muslim get worried that we react. I find this odd and very very disturbing.
Before I respond to Yahya probably on Youtube, I will simply post the comment I made here:
This makes me absolutely mad
There are thousands of similar cases (in Pakistan alone) involving murder, torture and rape---you will all see, the perpetrators will walk free; Islam teaches that the blood of a Muslim is more valuable than that of a Christian
Its demonic
Well, the revenge belongs to the God, if justice is escaped yet again, fire and torture still awaits on the day of judgements
Let's just consider the facts as they are.
The comment was posted here:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6590312557191237519&postID=2267118858243851217
Saturday, 6 February 2010
Seminar: How Can I be Sure About My Faith
For those attending the seminar: ‘How Can I Be Sure About My Faith’ on Wednesday the 10 of February.
We will be looking at two matters:
1. How can a Christian be sure that the religion of Christianity is genuine?
2. How can a Christian be sure that his faith in Christianity is genuine?
We will assess these two questions from three angles:
• The personal angle (I): which elements (evidence) in me and my life provide evidence that what I believe in is genuine?
• The personal angle (2): What evidence in me and my life provides evidence that my faith is genuine?
• The angle of apologetics: Which external elements (historical, scientific, philosophical) are available that confirm that your faith is based upon what is genuine?
My only requirement is that you think these matters through until Wednesday.
God bless
Hogan
We will be looking at two matters:
1. How can a Christian be sure that the religion of Christianity is genuine?
2. How can a Christian be sure that his faith in Christianity is genuine?
We will assess these two questions from three angles:
• The personal angle (I): which elements (evidence) in me and my life provide evidence that what I believe in is genuine?
• The personal angle (2): What evidence in me and my life provides evidence that my faith is genuine?
• The angle of apologetics: Which external elements (historical, scientific, philosophical) are available that confirm that your faith is based upon what is genuine?
My only requirement is that you think these matters through until Wednesday.
God bless
Hogan
Friday, 5 February 2010
Scientific errors in the Gospels and the Book of Revelation Debunked
This thread includes a dialogue between me and Etheshaam on scientific errors in the New Testament (The Gospels and the Book of Revelation).
Etheshaam wrote:
"The wind bloeth where it listeth."
Jesus says that no one knows which way the wind is blowing. But, of course, he was wrong about that. The direction and speed of the wind are easily measured. (See John 3:8)
Hogan replies:
No, Jesus does not say this all, nor does he indicate it; Jesus is not talking about the speed of wind; Jesus says about the wind: ‘you hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going’.
That is actually accurate! You don't always know where the wind comes from, even today with our tools to predict the weather, we are often mistaken about the direction of the wind.
Yet even if you were right, nobody of the time of Jesus had the equipment to measure the speed of wind; hence Jesus is not referring to our society today, but to a society that lacked such equipments; this is both a misrepresentation of the words of Jesus and a ridicolous argument.
Etheshaam wrote:
Jesus holds seven stars in his hand. Of course, it is possible that this is metaphorical. Perhaps. But it is clear from other verses (Revelations 6:13, 8:10, 12:4) that John thought of stars as being small, perhaps even small enough for Jesus to hold in his hand. See Rev1:16)
Hogan replies:
One word of advise: when you deal with the Book of Revelation; keep in mind that you are dealing with both metaphorical and apocalyptic language here; its an art to master each of them. All the references you have brought up are metaphorical; they are not referring to literal stars; just read the passages you quoted. I have spent much time in my life studying the Revelation, and almost memorized the entire book (I love the book of the Revelation); the content of the book is often more metaphorical than most people imagine.
Etheshaam wrote:
The dragon's tail smacks down to earth one third of the stars. To the author of Revelation, the stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky. (See Revelations 12:4)
Hogan replies:
I suggest that you read the entire context of Revelation chapter 12, in which the explanation is provided. The dragan stands for the devil, not a literary dragon (read the context). Stars were often viewed as angels or in this case of demons, in the Jewish language of metaphors, you will even find Old Testament passages confirming that; in the same chapter you read of the dragon and his angels being thrown down on the earth (again I encourage you to read the context).
Etheshaam wrote:
Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. (The smallest seeds are found among the tropical, epiphytic orchids
(Mark 4:31)
Hogan replies:
Jesus is not talking about seeds on a universal level, but ‘them’ the Jews or residents of Galilee and the seeds they planted in their gardens, this is evident if you read the entire context (Mark 4: 31-32). It may come more clearly out in Matthew 13: 32, which includes: ‘your seeds’.
Etheshaam wrote:
"The wind bloeth where it listeth."
Jesus says that no one knows which way the wind is blowing. But, of course, he was wrong about that. The direction and speed of the wind are easily measured. (See John 3:8)
Hogan replies:
No, Jesus does not say this all, nor does he indicate it; Jesus is not talking about the speed of wind; Jesus says about the wind: ‘you hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going’.
That is actually accurate! You don't always know where the wind comes from, even today with our tools to predict the weather, we are often mistaken about the direction of the wind.
Yet even if you were right, nobody of the time of Jesus had the equipment to measure the speed of wind; hence Jesus is not referring to our society today, but to a society that lacked such equipments; this is both a misrepresentation of the words of Jesus and a ridicolous argument.
Etheshaam wrote:
Jesus holds seven stars in his hand. Of course, it is possible that this is metaphorical. Perhaps. But it is clear from other verses (Revelations 6:13, 8:10, 12:4) that John thought of stars as being small, perhaps even small enough for Jesus to hold in his hand. See Rev1:16)
Hogan replies:
One word of advise: when you deal with the Book of Revelation; keep in mind that you are dealing with both metaphorical and apocalyptic language here; its an art to master each of them. All the references you have brought up are metaphorical; they are not referring to literal stars; just read the passages you quoted. I have spent much time in my life studying the Revelation, and almost memorized the entire book (I love the book of the Revelation); the content of the book is often more metaphorical than most people imagine.
Etheshaam wrote:
The dragon's tail smacks down to earth one third of the stars. To the author of Revelation, the stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky. (See Revelations 12:4)
Hogan replies:
I suggest that you read the entire context of Revelation chapter 12, in which the explanation is provided. The dragan stands for the devil, not a literary dragon (read the context). Stars were often viewed as angels or in this case of demons, in the Jewish language of metaphors, you will even find Old Testament passages confirming that; in the same chapter you read of the dragon and his angels being thrown down on the earth (again I encourage you to read the context).
Etheshaam wrote:
Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. (The smallest seeds are found among the tropical, epiphytic orchids
(Mark 4:31)
Hogan replies:
Jesus is not talking about seeds on a universal level, but ‘them’ the Jews or residents of Galilee and the seeds they planted in their gardens, this is evident if you read the entire context (Mark 4: 31-32). It may come more clearly out in Matthew 13: 32, which includes: ‘your seeds’.
Sunday, 31 January 2010
Why I became a Christian Apologist
Many people ask me why I devoted my life to argue against the critics of Christianity and even to question these same individuals and the religions or philosophies they adhere to in the same manner. Am I just the type that simply seeks confrontation and thrives in such environments?
In fact some people find me utterly offensive and suggest either that I become more objective or strive for the unity of all faiths and philosophies.
In other words my life and work is seen as a battle against each and all who differ from the Christian faith and hence my ambition and effort to attack or debate is by many considered as a negative element in our multireligious and multi-philosophical world community.
But why and how did I become an apologist?
In all honesty I would rather spend my time in Africa or India helping out those who are less fortunate.
Believe it or not I often ask God why he has guided me to take up the role as an apologist in God’s Kingdom.
When I became a Christian I knew nothing of the issues and questions related to apologetics.
However, since my decision to be a Jesus follower at the age of 15 I have been exposed to the views and arguments of many opponents who attacked the faith and life that I loved so dearly: that is the faith and connection with God, which virtually transformed my life from teenage rebellion and gang activity into a mindset and lifestyle that aimed at loving God and my fellow human being.
I grew up with atheists continually attacking and mocking my faith and the Bible in the news papers. I witnessed atheists virtually propagating and evangelising the teenagers in my church. Secondly, I witnessed my own Christian home-community being unable to adequately reply to these attacks and accusations, simply because apologetics and polemics was not the tactic or approach of these Christians, and because they neither possessed training or experience in apologetics or debating.
This is when I realised how weak the Christian community in the West stands in dealing with their critics, which is why I have (today) devoted my life to study and provide the training and answers they need in confronting their opponents on a intellectual basis.
In my teenage years I quickly involved myself in Christian youth work, preaching and Bible teaching as well as discipleship training.
Mission was my passion. I developed a great interest in theology and Bible knowledge and read the Bible from cover to cover a number of times and began memorizing passages.
In my first year in Bible College in the UK in 1992 I memorized all the epistles of Paul. I read extensively the Bible and additional theological and Christian literature until late night time.
In addition I joined several evangelistic teams and organisations in Europe and involved myself in a variety of missionary campaigns and projects.
The breakthrough into a ministry of apologetics was nevertheless not triggered by the dialogues and conversations with typical Europeans or hanging around in the slums or homeless shelters.
It was not until I stayed for a while in the city of Bradford in UK in 1992 that I experienced for the first time the Muslim community and the necessity of developing my apologetics skills.
The Muslims I encountered eagerly attacked and undermined my faith.
These relied heavily upon liberal theology and the claims that the Bible is changed and fabricated. Particularly I became familiar with the Ahmed Deedat and his literature.
I realised that I had to begin considering apologetics; also I was convinced that if Islam felt obliged to attack Christianity in this manner, I and other Christians logically possessed the same right to criticise, expose and debunk the Islamic faith.
After my experience I began looking into literature dealing with Bible background, the canon of Scripture, criticism, etc. I particularly enjoyed the books of F.F. Bruce ‘The Canon of Scripture’ and ‘The Bible and the Parchments’. Also I got hold on Philips Comfort ‘The Origin of the Bible’ and Josh McDowells’ two heavy volumes of ‘Evidence that Demands a Verdict’ and another heavy work of McDowell: ‘He walked among us’. Other books that greatly impacted me at this time were George Eldon Ladd’s ‘The New Testament Criticism’, Ralph P. Martins two excellent volumes: ‘New Testament Foundations: A Guide for Christian Students’ and Gleason Archer’s: ‘A Survey of Old Testament Introduction’.
Despite my sudden interest in apologetics, I moved back home and my involvement in church work resulted in my apologetics study to halt.
Later in 1995 I moved to Birmingham. Never in my whole life had my faith been as challenged to the extent as in Birmingham 1995.
The Muslims I met tore me apart with their arguments against the Bible and well prepared apologetics. From an intellectual point of view this was not surprising. I had very little back-up. In these days Christians were hardly prepared for these Muslim apologists. There was no Answering-Islam.org, few books, Jay Smith had just entered the scene; and it seemed as if Islam was gaining ground.
For several months I was considering becoming a Muslim. I used to spend hours meeting Muslims, experience my faith and view of the Bible to be demolished and then head off for the library to find answers to solve my doubts.
At that time I had not the slightest clue where to look for answers. I knew nothing about the Talmud, Galen, Lucretius (books that reveal early Qur'anic plagiarism) and there were hardly any books out there dealing effectively with Biblical criticism or Islamic polemics.
Thanks God today things have changed, and changed significantly.
What probably overwhelmed me the most was this sudden move into a different culture, the frequent debates, in which I lacked basic knowledge, and particularly the street debates.
In Birmingham 1995 the radical Islamic student organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir had taken the streets by surprise. I found myself constantly in fiery street debates, often being the only Christian surrounded by 20-30 Muslims.
I realised the tactic these Muslim street apologists utilized by simply having ten guys bombarding you with questions, all ten in one go, not permitting you to respond and quickly and continually changing topic, which appeared to me as a way to protect themselves from the replies but also the means to manipulate and confuse your mind. After an hour you actually felt that you brain had been twisted, virtually out of your control; think about it: by nature this is a method that corresponds to typical cultic brainwashing techniques upon their new members; I had already read a number of books describing these methods and its dreadful effect upon the victims.
After one to two hours of that experience, I dreaded to think about the effects of such manipulation if exercised over a couple of days.
I had other co-workers who had similar experiences being surrounding by a Muslim mob and in one particular case been held physically in the middle while question after question was pounded from several individuals at the same time. One Christian described that after a while he literally fell to the ground in exhaustion trying to repel the pressure of the intimidation, shouting and the arguments.
It was in this sort of situations I was exposed to the variaty of claims e.g. that the Qur’an predicts modern science, the full list of Biblical contradictions and textual criticism, the Jesus myths (Jesus being a plagiarised version of Mithra, Osiris among others), and the claim that everyone even Christian scholars were renouncing Christianity and the Bible and becoming Muslims.
It was only later that I discovered the fallacies, deception, lies and misconceptions behind all these claims.
What convinced me against the religion of Islam, in favour of Christianity were my own personal studies on Bible backgrounds, my reading about early manuscripts and the New Testament Canon (thanks God for Bruce and Comfort), and of equal importance was my own personal experience of a supernatural nature when I became a follower of Jesus.
After my experience in the UK I actually headed for the mission field for several years.
I travelled through several third-world countries, of these several Muslim countries. I spent entire months in these Muslim countries, met Muslim preachers, spent time in mosques doing dialogue, evangelised, got persecuted, abducted, arrested, and was occasionally forced to escape or hide from military, fundamentalists and the secret police. Yeah I should write a book.
I also met and spent months with the Christian communities in these countries and lived among them; I saw firsthand the persecution and the pain wrought upon them and their families by their Islamic rulers. This one Christian brother of mine had been held in jail for months due to his faith. He had been continually beaten, burned, suffered torture by freezing and had his belly opened. I will never forget standing in an abandoned church building in which a number of Christians had been butchered. The blood and body parts were still scattered all over the church. I also entered an area secretly in which Muslims were encouraged every day, through the mosque loud-speaker, to kill at least one Christian prior to breakfast; Christians had already been killed and those remaining lived in horrible conditions.
It also caught my attention how much these brothers and sisters of mine needed training in apologetics.
These Christians who by the Muslim communities are reduced to dhimmis and which the Western media (due to political correctness) has willingly neglected had not only been exposed to the Islamic polemics and its intimidation their entire life; in addition, by Islamic law, they were not even permitted to defend their faith.
I have to say that these years moulded and shaped my personality, my ambition and my plan for life.
Returning back to Europe I began my studies, I completed a BA degree in theology from USA and a second in the UK. At the same time I worked with a Christian organisation; it was hard life and busy, but worth it.
When finishing my BA Honour in theology I continued theological studies on MA level. This is when things became really exciting. I did extensive studies on source criticism, the synoptic Gospels and Q, the historical Jesus, Gnosticism, early Christian succession and oral transmission and the contribution of the church fathers. I spent considerable time studying New Testament Greek, palaeography, New Testament textual criticism, Christology and church history.
In addition I expanded my knowledge significantly in studying the scholars of theology and Biblical studies from both extremes of the spectrum; from the fringe liberal and critical scholars to the actual believers in the Bible.
I would say that most of my time went reading and studying liberal scholarship, such as Barth Ehrman, Bultmann, Ludemann, Kasemann, Burton L. Mack, Sanders and many others.
I decided to be as objective as possible in my study of the Bible and its background and not base my academic studies upon my faith but upon the historical sources and data.
At the same time I decided to consider the theories of all these critical scholars (and that is what liberal-critical scholarship is: theory), but I decided that as an historian neither faith nor theory would determine the conclusions based upon the actual historical data.
I can only say the study has been revolutionary. The reliability of the Gospels and the New Testament is outstanding evidence that the apostles and their successors together with the earliest Christian community preserved the facts: the account and teachings of Jesus effectively.
This fact certainly debunks the conjecture of critical scholarship, atheism and the inconsistent claims of Muslim apologists.
This is an exciting time in my life; I am currently building up my ministry to expand my work in apologetics.
I expect in future to engage myself in public debating, seminars and writing, defending the truth of the Gospel and the accuracy of the Christian writings and the Christian faith, while at the same time to expose the lies of opposing ideas of false religion and atheism.
Neither have I forgotten my passion to provide support and training for my brothers and sisters who need the basic training and are living their lives in world communities in which their freedom to study, speak out and defend themselves is not right provided.
Hence being an apologist, I do not deem my work futile. In fact strengthening Christians in their faith, I am not only confirming the Christian faith but by the grace of God I support and build up Christians who will enter the mission field or promote Christianity in their everyday life and who will make a difference in the world spiritually, politically and socially.
In fact some people find me utterly offensive and suggest either that I become more objective or strive for the unity of all faiths and philosophies.
In other words my life and work is seen as a battle against each and all who differ from the Christian faith and hence my ambition and effort to attack or debate is by many considered as a negative element in our multireligious and multi-philosophical world community.
But why and how did I become an apologist?
In all honesty I would rather spend my time in Africa or India helping out those who are less fortunate.
Believe it or not I often ask God why he has guided me to take up the role as an apologist in God’s Kingdom.
When I became a Christian I knew nothing of the issues and questions related to apologetics.
However, since my decision to be a Jesus follower at the age of 15 I have been exposed to the views and arguments of many opponents who attacked the faith and life that I loved so dearly: that is the faith and connection with God, which virtually transformed my life from teenage rebellion and gang activity into a mindset and lifestyle that aimed at loving God and my fellow human being.
I grew up with atheists continually attacking and mocking my faith and the Bible in the news papers. I witnessed atheists virtually propagating and evangelising the teenagers in my church. Secondly, I witnessed my own Christian home-community being unable to adequately reply to these attacks and accusations, simply because apologetics and polemics was not the tactic or approach of these Christians, and because they neither possessed training or experience in apologetics or debating.
This is when I realised how weak the Christian community in the West stands in dealing with their critics, which is why I have (today) devoted my life to study and provide the training and answers they need in confronting their opponents on a intellectual basis.
In my teenage years I quickly involved myself in Christian youth work, preaching and Bible teaching as well as discipleship training.
Mission was my passion. I developed a great interest in theology and Bible knowledge and read the Bible from cover to cover a number of times and began memorizing passages.
In my first year in Bible College in the UK in 1992 I memorized all the epistles of Paul. I read extensively the Bible and additional theological and Christian literature until late night time.
In addition I joined several evangelistic teams and organisations in Europe and involved myself in a variety of missionary campaigns and projects.
The breakthrough into a ministry of apologetics was nevertheless not triggered by the dialogues and conversations with typical Europeans or hanging around in the slums or homeless shelters.
It was not until I stayed for a while in the city of Bradford in UK in 1992 that I experienced for the first time the Muslim community and the necessity of developing my apologetics skills.
The Muslims I encountered eagerly attacked and undermined my faith.
These relied heavily upon liberal theology and the claims that the Bible is changed and fabricated. Particularly I became familiar with the Ahmed Deedat and his literature.
I realised that I had to begin considering apologetics; also I was convinced that if Islam felt obliged to attack Christianity in this manner, I and other Christians logically possessed the same right to criticise, expose and debunk the Islamic faith.
After my experience I began looking into literature dealing with Bible background, the canon of Scripture, criticism, etc. I particularly enjoyed the books of F.F. Bruce ‘The Canon of Scripture’ and ‘The Bible and the Parchments’. Also I got hold on Philips Comfort ‘The Origin of the Bible’ and Josh McDowells’ two heavy volumes of ‘Evidence that Demands a Verdict’ and another heavy work of McDowell: ‘He walked among us’. Other books that greatly impacted me at this time were George Eldon Ladd’s ‘The New Testament Criticism’, Ralph P. Martins two excellent volumes: ‘New Testament Foundations: A Guide for Christian Students’ and Gleason Archer’s: ‘A Survey of Old Testament Introduction’.
Despite my sudden interest in apologetics, I moved back home and my involvement in church work resulted in my apologetics study to halt.
Later in 1995 I moved to Birmingham. Never in my whole life had my faith been as challenged to the extent as in Birmingham 1995.
The Muslims I met tore me apart with their arguments against the Bible and well prepared apologetics. From an intellectual point of view this was not surprising. I had very little back-up. In these days Christians were hardly prepared for these Muslim apologists. There was no Answering-Islam.org, few books, Jay Smith had just entered the scene; and it seemed as if Islam was gaining ground.
For several months I was considering becoming a Muslim. I used to spend hours meeting Muslims, experience my faith and view of the Bible to be demolished and then head off for the library to find answers to solve my doubts.
At that time I had not the slightest clue where to look for answers. I knew nothing about the Talmud, Galen, Lucretius (books that reveal early Qur'anic plagiarism) and there were hardly any books out there dealing effectively with Biblical criticism or Islamic polemics.
Thanks God today things have changed, and changed significantly.
What probably overwhelmed me the most was this sudden move into a different culture, the frequent debates, in which I lacked basic knowledge, and particularly the street debates.
In Birmingham 1995 the radical Islamic student organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir had taken the streets by surprise. I found myself constantly in fiery street debates, often being the only Christian surrounded by 20-30 Muslims.
I realised the tactic these Muslim street apologists utilized by simply having ten guys bombarding you with questions, all ten in one go, not permitting you to respond and quickly and continually changing topic, which appeared to me as a way to protect themselves from the replies but also the means to manipulate and confuse your mind. After an hour you actually felt that you brain had been twisted, virtually out of your control; think about it: by nature this is a method that corresponds to typical cultic brainwashing techniques upon their new members; I had already read a number of books describing these methods and its dreadful effect upon the victims.
After one to two hours of that experience, I dreaded to think about the effects of such manipulation if exercised over a couple of days.
I had other co-workers who had similar experiences being surrounding by a Muslim mob and in one particular case been held physically in the middle while question after question was pounded from several individuals at the same time. One Christian described that after a while he literally fell to the ground in exhaustion trying to repel the pressure of the intimidation, shouting and the arguments.
It was in this sort of situations I was exposed to the variaty of claims e.g. that the Qur’an predicts modern science, the full list of Biblical contradictions and textual criticism, the Jesus myths (Jesus being a plagiarised version of Mithra, Osiris among others), and the claim that everyone even Christian scholars were renouncing Christianity and the Bible and becoming Muslims.
It was only later that I discovered the fallacies, deception, lies and misconceptions behind all these claims.
What convinced me against the religion of Islam, in favour of Christianity were my own personal studies on Bible backgrounds, my reading about early manuscripts and the New Testament Canon (thanks God for Bruce and Comfort), and of equal importance was my own personal experience of a supernatural nature when I became a follower of Jesus.
After my experience in the UK I actually headed for the mission field for several years.
I travelled through several third-world countries, of these several Muslim countries. I spent entire months in these Muslim countries, met Muslim preachers, spent time in mosques doing dialogue, evangelised, got persecuted, abducted, arrested, and was occasionally forced to escape or hide from military, fundamentalists and the secret police. Yeah I should write a book.
I also met and spent months with the Christian communities in these countries and lived among them; I saw firsthand the persecution and the pain wrought upon them and their families by their Islamic rulers. This one Christian brother of mine had been held in jail for months due to his faith. He had been continually beaten, burned, suffered torture by freezing and had his belly opened. I will never forget standing in an abandoned church building in which a number of Christians had been butchered. The blood and body parts were still scattered all over the church. I also entered an area secretly in which Muslims were encouraged every day, through the mosque loud-speaker, to kill at least one Christian prior to breakfast; Christians had already been killed and those remaining lived in horrible conditions.
It also caught my attention how much these brothers and sisters of mine needed training in apologetics.
These Christians who by the Muslim communities are reduced to dhimmis and which the Western media (due to political correctness) has willingly neglected had not only been exposed to the Islamic polemics and its intimidation their entire life; in addition, by Islamic law, they were not even permitted to defend their faith.
I have to say that these years moulded and shaped my personality, my ambition and my plan for life.
Returning back to Europe I began my studies, I completed a BA degree in theology from USA and a second in the UK. At the same time I worked with a Christian organisation; it was hard life and busy, but worth it.
When finishing my BA Honour in theology I continued theological studies on MA level. This is when things became really exciting. I did extensive studies on source criticism, the synoptic Gospels and Q, the historical Jesus, Gnosticism, early Christian succession and oral transmission and the contribution of the church fathers. I spent considerable time studying New Testament Greek, palaeography, New Testament textual criticism, Christology and church history.
In addition I expanded my knowledge significantly in studying the scholars of theology and Biblical studies from both extremes of the spectrum; from the fringe liberal and critical scholars to the actual believers in the Bible.
I would say that most of my time went reading and studying liberal scholarship, such as Barth Ehrman, Bultmann, Ludemann, Kasemann, Burton L. Mack, Sanders and many others.
I decided to be as objective as possible in my study of the Bible and its background and not base my academic studies upon my faith but upon the historical sources and data.
At the same time I decided to consider the theories of all these critical scholars (and that is what liberal-critical scholarship is: theory), but I decided that as an historian neither faith nor theory would determine the conclusions based upon the actual historical data.
I can only say the study has been revolutionary. The reliability of the Gospels and the New Testament is outstanding evidence that the apostles and their successors together with the earliest Christian community preserved the facts: the account and teachings of Jesus effectively.
This fact certainly debunks the conjecture of critical scholarship, atheism and the inconsistent claims of Muslim apologists.
This is an exciting time in my life; I am currently building up my ministry to expand my work in apologetics.
I expect in future to engage myself in public debating, seminars and writing, defending the truth of the Gospel and the accuracy of the Christian writings and the Christian faith, while at the same time to expose the lies of opposing ideas of false religion and atheism.
Neither have I forgotten my passion to provide support and training for my brothers and sisters who need the basic training and are living their lives in world communities in which their freedom to study, speak out and defend themselves is not right provided.
Hence being an apologist, I do not deem my work futile. In fact strengthening Christians in their faith, I am not only confirming the Christian faith but by the grace of God I support and build up Christians who will enter the mission field or promote Christianity in their everyday life and who will make a difference in the world spiritually, politically and socially.
Saturday, 9 January 2010
Debunking the claim that the Quran Predicts Modern Science: The Qur’an and the World of Atoms
Does the Qur'an Predict the Sub-atomic world and particles? This is the claim of certain Islamic apologists, such as Mustafa Mlivo, Muhammad Assaid and Zakir Naik among others:
Mustafa Mlivo, Quran and Science , The Qur’an prior to Science and Civilisation; see: http://www.preciousheart.net/Main_Archives/Links_Folder/SUPER_List_Islam.htmAnd
Muhammad Assadi, in his book: The Unifying Theory of Everything: Koran and Nature’s Testimony; see http://www.amazon.com/Unifying-Theory-Everything-Natures-Testimony/dp/0595129048
And Zakir Naik; see http://www.scribd.com/doc/18926563/Quran-and-Modern-Science-EnglishBy-Dr-Zakir-Naik
These among others claim that the Qur’an is miraculous in its prediction of the sub atomic world (that is sub atomic particles).
Let's assess the claim:
The particular Qur’anic (Sura 34: 3) passages reads:
‘...by him who knows the unseen,—from who is not hidden the least little atom in the heavens or on earth; nor is there anything less than that, or greater, but is in the record of perspicuous ’
See also Sura 10: 61:
‘He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom’s weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that...’
Firstly we need to consider that there is a debate whether the Qur’an is literally referring to atoms or insects or possibly dust.But let us for a moment assume that the Qur’an does refer to atoms and the sub-atomic particles, are we then correct to presume that this reference is miraculous or is possible that the Qur’an only makes a lucky guess or even that sub-atomic particles were already a common idea flourishing in the time of Muhammad?
The theory of atoms was founded by Leucippus (440 BC) and Democritus (432 BC), who proposed that atoms constituted and composed everything in existence even heaven and earth.
The theory perceived the atoms as physical particles, which are in constant motion; being indivisible, indestructible and infinite in number and varieties.
All this is slightly correct indeed, expect of course that the number of atoms and their varieties are infinite.
Indeed the early atomists predicted a range of up-to-date details, such as Democritus’ ‘moving at random’, which according to Russel in his book: 'History of Western Philosophy' suggests denotes the kinetic theory of gasses; and furthermore the collisions of atoms which collected them and formed vortices and later material bodies (Russell, 82-84); all this was in agreement with the latter theory of Lucretius (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe, p. 185).
Yet Democritus and many early atomists seem to have committed the fallacy of considering atoms to contain no void, which made them impenetrable and indivisible (Russell, History of Western Philosophy, p. 88).
This error excluded the existing reality of e.g. the neutrons, protons and electrons, and the newly proposed theory of the quarks.
That is of course unless we move Democritus’ understanding as a theory of the Quark world and what preceded it.
Hence according to certain Muslim writers, e.g. Mlivo and Muhammad Assadi and Zakir Naik, this suggests that the Qur'an solely gets the information right and must therefore be of divine origin.
However, there are serious flaws within this Muslim proposition.
Its primary failure is the failure to grasp that atomic science developed through the centuries.
The emphatic claim of Democritus, that atoms were the first cause-particles which could not be further divided appears to be slightly diminishing at the time of Lucretius (approximately 50 BC); Lucretius seems to refer to new ideas in his time which suggests that atoms could be divided (at least he alludes to ideas quite different from those presupposed by Democritus); Lucretius writes in 50 BC:
‘It is with a mass of such parts, solidly jammed together in order, that matter is filled up. Since they cannot exist by themselves, they must stick together in a mass from which they cannot by any means be prized loose. The atoms therefore are absolutely solid and unalloyed, consisting of a mass of least parts tightly packed together. They are not compounds formed by the coalescence of their parts, but bodies of absolute and everlasting solidity. To these nature allows no loss or diminution, but guards them as seeds for things. If there are no such least parts, even the smallest bodies will consist of an infinite number of parts, since they can always be halved and their halves halved again’ (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe 45)?
What are these least parts of which the atoms consist? And how about the opposite position, but otherwise proposed impossibility, that atoms can be halved and halved again?
This idea seems to have been raised 600 years prior to Islam. And there are further indications, that even the Epicurean's postulated particles smaller than atoms.
Epicurean theory theorized that our body throws off thin films, which travel to touch the soul-atoms to create sensation; if these were considered to operate between atoms, then we might assume they are smaller (Russell, History of Western Philosophy, p. 255).
If however, atoms are the principle of matter and thus life, why is it that the Qur’an, being a divine revelation does not provide further insight into the world of atoms or quantum? Why is the Qur’an making no reference to atoms in relation to compounds or the combination of atoms to form a greater mass, as was expounded upon by Lucretius more 600 years prior to Islam (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe, p.41); Lucretius writes:
‘At that time the sun’s bright disc was not to be seen here, soaring loft and lavishing light, nor the stars that crowd the far-flung firmament, nor sea nor sky, nor earth, nor air nor anything in the likeness of things we know nothing but a hurricane raging in a newly congregated mass of atoms of every sort’ (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe, 184).
This completely refutes Zakir Naik in his debate with William Campbell, in which he admitted the similarity between Qur’anic and Greek science but then claimed that Qur’anic science is more specific and even corrects Greek science.
The Qur’an does not explain that the atoms are the fundamental building blocks and existed prior to cosmological expansion and the accretion of the earth, nor does it describe their existence as prior to the galactic dimension the pre-stellar material existed.Lucretius’ description of a primordial congregated mass of atoms in the writings of Lucretius is fairly accurate and presents an idea that is much more advanced and explicit than the Qur’anic simple reference to the world of atoms and lesser matter.
Lucretius continues:
‘...they (the atoms) began, in fact, to separate the heights of heaven from the earth, to single out the sea as a receptacle for water detached from the mass and to set apart the fires of pure and isolated ether. In the first place all the particles of earth, because they were heavy and intertangled, collected in the middle and took up the undermost stations. The more closely they cohered and clung together, the more they squeezed out the atoms that went to the making of sea and stars, sun and moon and the outer walls of the great world’ (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe, 184-5)?
While Lucretius’ postulate is outdated and contains a number of flaws, it does reveal a much more advanced insight into the atomic world than the Qur'an does and some details actually predicts modern science.
If the Qur’an is a miracle due to its reference to atoms and smaller matter, then certainly a number of Greek philosophers and indeed the atheist Lucretius were divinely inspired.
What is much more logical however is that the Qur’an simply describes the ideas that were flourishing within its time and era; unfortunately for the Muslim position is the fact that these pre-Islamic sources provide a much more advanced and accurate picture of the atomic world than the Qur’an.
Mustafa Mlivo, Quran and Science , The Qur’an prior to Science and Civilisation; see: http://www.preciousheart.net/Main_Archives/Links_Folder/SUPER_List_Islam.htmAnd
Muhammad Assadi, in his book: The Unifying Theory of Everything: Koran and Nature’s Testimony; see http://www.amazon.com/Unifying-Theory-Everything-Natures-Testimony/dp/0595129048
And Zakir Naik; see http://www.scribd.com/doc/18926563/Quran-and-Modern-Science-EnglishBy-Dr-Zakir-Naik
These among others claim that the Qur’an is miraculous in its prediction of the sub atomic world (that is sub atomic particles).
Let's assess the claim:
The particular Qur’anic (Sura 34: 3) passages reads:
‘...by him who knows the unseen,—from who is not hidden the least little atom in the heavens or on earth; nor is there anything less than that, or greater, but is in the record of perspicuous ’
See also Sura 10: 61:
‘He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom’s weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that...’
Firstly we need to consider that there is a debate whether the Qur’an is literally referring to atoms or insects or possibly dust.But let us for a moment assume that the Qur’an does refer to atoms and the sub-atomic particles, are we then correct to presume that this reference is miraculous or is possible that the Qur’an only makes a lucky guess or even that sub-atomic particles were already a common idea flourishing in the time of Muhammad?
The theory of atoms was founded by Leucippus (440 BC) and Democritus (432 BC), who proposed that atoms constituted and composed everything in existence even heaven and earth.
The theory perceived the atoms as physical particles, which are in constant motion; being indivisible, indestructible and infinite in number and varieties.
All this is slightly correct indeed, expect of course that the number of atoms and their varieties are infinite.
Indeed the early atomists predicted a range of up-to-date details, such as Democritus’ ‘moving at random’, which according to Russel in his book: 'History of Western Philosophy' suggests denotes the kinetic theory of gasses; and furthermore the collisions of atoms which collected them and formed vortices and later material bodies (Russell, 82-84); all this was in agreement with the latter theory of Lucretius (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe, p. 185).
Yet Democritus and many early atomists seem to have committed the fallacy of considering atoms to contain no void, which made them impenetrable and indivisible (Russell, History of Western Philosophy, p. 88).
This error excluded the existing reality of e.g. the neutrons, protons and electrons, and the newly proposed theory of the quarks.
That is of course unless we move Democritus’ understanding as a theory of the Quark world and what preceded it.
Hence according to certain Muslim writers, e.g. Mlivo and Muhammad Assadi and Zakir Naik, this suggests that the Qur'an solely gets the information right and must therefore be of divine origin.
However, there are serious flaws within this Muslim proposition.
Its primary failure is the failure to grasp that atomic science developed through the centuries.
The emphatic claim of Democritus, that atoms were the first cause-particles which could not be further divided appears to be slightly diminishing at the time of Lucretius (approximately 50 BC); Lucretius seems to refer to new ideas in his time which suggests that atoms could be divided (at least he alludes to ideas quite different from those presupposed by Democritus); Lucretius writes in 50 BC:
‘It is with a mass of such parts, solidly jammed together in order, that matter is filled up. Since they cannot exist by themselves, they must stick together in a mass from which they cannot by any means be prized loose. The atoms therefore are absolutely solid and unalloyed, consisting of a mass of least parts tightly packed together. They are not compounds formed by the coalescence of their parts, but bodies of absolute and everlasting solidity. To these nature allows no loss or diminution, but guards them as seeds for things. If there are no such least parts, even the smallest bodies will consist of an infinite number of parts, since they can always be halved and their halves halved again’ (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe 45)?
What are these least parts of which the atoms consist? And how about the opposite position, but otherwise proposed impossibility, that atoms can be halved and halved again?
This idea seems to have been raised 600 years prior to Islam. And there are further indications, that even the Epicurean's postulated particles smaller than atoms.
Epicurean theory theorized that our body throws off thin films, which travel to touch the soul-atoms to create sensation; if these were considered to operate between atoms, then we might assume they are smaller (Russell, History of Western Philosophy, p. 255).
If however, atoms are the principle of matter and thus life, why is it that the Qur’an, being a divine revelation does not provide further insight into the world of atoms or quantum? Why is the Qur’an making no reference to atoms in relation to compounds or the combination of atoms to form a greater mass, as was expounded upon by Lucretius more 600 years prior to Islam (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe, p.41); Lucretius writes:
‘At that time the sun’s bright disc was not to be seen here, soaring loft and lavishing light, nor the stars that crowd the far-flung firmament, nor sea nor sky, nor earth, nor air nor anything in the likeness of things we know nothing but a hurricane raging in a newly congregated mass of atoms of every sort’ (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe, 184).
This completely refutes Zakir Naik in his debate with William Campbell, in which he admitted the similarity between Qur’anic and Greek science but then claimed that Qur’anic science is more specific and even corrects Greek science.
The Qur’an does not explain that the atoms are the fundamental building blocks and existed prior to cosmological expansion and the accretion of the earth, nor does it describe their existence as prior to the galactic dimension the pre-stellar material existed.Lucretius’ description of a primordial congregated mass of atoms in the writings of Lucretius is fairly accurate and presents an idea that is much more advanced and explicit than the Qur’anic simple reference to the world of atoms and lesser matter.
Lucretius continues:
‘...they (the atoms) began, in fact, to separate the heights of heaven from the earth, to single out the sea as a receptacle for water detached from the mass and to set apart the fires of pure and isolated ether. In the first place all the particles of earth, because they were heavy and intertangled, collected in the middle and took up the undermost stations. The more closely they cohered and clung together, the more they squeezed out the atoms that went to the making of sea and stars, sun and moon and the outer walls of the great world’ (Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe, 184-5)?
While Lucretius’ postulate is outdated and contains a number of flaws, it does reveal a much more advanced insight into the atomic world than the Qur'an does and some details actually predicts modern science.
If the Qur’an is a miracle due to its reference to atoms and smaller matter, then certainly a number of Greek philosophers and indeed the atheist Lucretius were divinely inspired.
What is much more logical however is that the Qur’an simply describes the ideas that were flourishing within its time and era; unfortunately for the Muslim position is the fact that these pre-Islamic sources provide a much more advanced and accurate picture of the atomic world than the Qur’an.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)