Science in the Qur'an and the External Sources.

A common claim propagated by Muslims in the recent era is the claim of modern scientific discoveries being predicted in the Qur'an, which then obviously begs the question: how could a nomad such as Muhammad, who cut of from the world and aquainted only with the dessert and the camels possess such knowledge?

Let me first say, that I have done extensive study on must of these so-called scientific predictions in the Qur'an and my conclusion remains that the Qur'an reveals the knowledge of Muhammad's era only; hence the claim that the Qur'an is miracolously predicting in the seventh century what science recently has discovered is not a sustainable claim.

In this short thread I intend merely to assess the claim that Muhammad was so cut off and remote from the outside world, its knowledge and science as Muslims want us to believe. Or is it plausible that such knowledge was available and obvious to the prophet of Islam via those individuals to whom he was aquainted?

Muhammad and the two claims

Pre-Islamic Arabs are usually portrayed as simple nomads, strongly acquainted with dessert-life and particularly poetry; yet lacking every existing insight into the thought and science of its present era.[1] According to Iabal the scientific advancements that emerged with Islam were caused primarily by the appearance and study of the Qur’an; which later laid the foundation for Islam’s interaction with the world-powers and their knowledge.[2]

Based on this, two assertions run frequently: primarily that Muhammad would have no access to nor possess any knowledge of the science promoted by his contemporaries; secondly, that the cause behind the science promoted by the Qur’an must therefore be of divine revelatory origin.
This proposition has in recent years been particularly promoted by Maurice Bucaille, who writes:

‘How could a man living fourteen hundred years ago have made corrections to the existing description to such an extent that he eliminated scientifically inaccurate material and, on his own initiative, made statements that science has been able to verify only in the present day? This hypothesis is completely untenable’.[3]

Hence to assess this claim, we need to ask whether Muhammad was divinely inspired and uninformed, or whether he possessed access to the scientific postulates of his day. Furthermore, we need to ask whether the scientific claims of the Qur’an are consistent with the claims of modern discoveries.

Muhammad a man of knowledge

O’Leary points out that there are elements of definite Greek scientific origin, which made its way to the Arabs by a transmission of which route and date are uncertain.[4] This suggests that early Arabs might have possessed a slight insight into the ideas of the Greeks, even prior to the era of Islamic conquests. According to early sources Muhammad possessed knowledge and pursued it, as evident from Tabari’s narration: ‘Muhammad said:

“Man’s glance at knowledge for an hour is better for him than prayer for sixty years”. He therefore commanded all believers to seek knowledge and to go to China in search of knowledge, if required’.[5]

Muhammad certainly possessed insight into the celestial world and their orbits; al-Tabari writes:

‘The Prophet [Mohammed] replied: “Ali, they are five stars: Jupiter (al-birjis), Saturn (zuhal), Mercury (utarid), Mars (Bahram), and Venus (al-zuhrah). These five stars rise and run like the sun and the moon and race with them together. All the other stars are suspended from heaven as lamps are from mosques,… al-Tabari vol.1 p.235-236.”’[6]

If therefore, Muhammad was acquainted only with the impoverished life of northern Arabia and its cultural exclusiveness and remoteness, from where did such insight derive? Is it plausible that Muhammad’s environment and social circle was not as scientifically impoverished as we are made to believe? Is it possible that Mecca and dessert cities were indeed impacted by external cultures?

Here we first need to consider the situation and history of ancient Arabia.

Prior to Muhammad Arabia was divided into the South, the Sabaens, also referred to as the Yemenites, and the North, referred to as Arabs.

The South was a populated and sedentary community, living in cities, while the North was inhospitable, nomadic and isolated; hence we know that Arabia was not solemnly remote and isolated. Yet were there any interactions between Arabs in the south and north and other factions that might have enriched or established knowledge among the dessert people? The Sabaenas, ran two trade routes, an ocean based route between India and Africa, and the land-based, particularly toward Syria and Egypt.[7]

There is evidence that literary interaction between the South-Arabs, the Greeks and the Indians took place even centuries before Islam. Since 1300 BC, the South Arabs left inscriptions in the North, what the nomads referred to as musnad. Interestingly, the musnad alphabet was effected by Greek language, which reveals the impact of Hellenism even in the south prior to appearance of Islam. Furthermore since alters to Arabic deities have been found in Delos we know that the Arabs actually traded in the Greek world.[8]

For these routes to operate intermediate centres were needed; these were the oasis alongside the land-route between Yemen and Syria of which one was Mecca.[9] This confirms that the trades required among the Arabs a certain acquaintance with Greek and other languages, which became the communication of administration.[10] Hence the influence of trade and their international influence and the stations, certainly imply that Greek knowledge was spreading around.

Yet there were also other means of international interaction, such as the intervals of Northern dominance.

At one point the South weakened and the Northern tribes took the advantage to invade extensive parts of the South Syrian territory.[11] Even though no signs are evident of the Greek culture passing to the Arabs here, yet because Arab states were formed a long the eastern border of Syria and left untouched,[12] it is plausible that centuries of proximity prior to Muhammad’s era caused ideas to pass on. Further escalation between the political powers of the Byzantine in the North, the Persians in the East and the rulers of the south caused North Arabia to be caught in between.[13]

In 450 AD the community in the South suddenly declines, its proliferation vanishes, which causes massive migration to the North. These immigrants strengthened the oasis and their communities and establish intellectual centres among the people of the dessert.[14]

A third influence was the dispersion of various Christian sects and Judaism, which also impacted the dessert community.[15] The Christian Nestorians reached deep into the Arabian dessert with their message, as far as to Wadi I-Qura, near Medina. Beside the Nestorians, there were other Christian factions who expanded their influence; such as the Monophysites whose centre in Arabia was Najran.[16]

These sects were connected to Christian factions to which science was greatly valued; who possessed schools which emphasised and propagated the Christian faith, including philosophy and science. Their contribution to translating literature e.g. into Syrian language and their knowledge was not only confined to monasteries but were transmitted to the communities.[17]

The extensive influence impacted even scientific centres such as Jundishpur in Persia, in which global science was accumulated and dispersed into all direction;[18] plausibly into Arabia.

We need to consider that these factions of Christianity were proliferating in Arabia prior and in Muhammad’s era. We know also that Muhammad visited Syria at least once.[19] Arthur Jeffery suggest that a range of religious vocabulary in the Qur’an, such as Qur’an, Isa and Injil derives from the Syrian Christian faction. If this is true it reveals strong, intellectual interaction and borrowing, which Jeffery seems to suggest.[20]

In the early era of Islam a group of Muhammad’s followers settled in the Christian Abyssinia, which led to interaction between Muhammad, the earliest Muslims and the ruling body of Abyssinia.[21]

Furthermore, O’Leary points out the possibility of runaway Ethiopian slaves who joined the Muslims, who interestingly might be the ones who were suspected to help Muhammad composing the Qur’an.[22] The Bukhari indeed refers to a Christian convert to Islam, who helped narrating Muhammad revelations. Initially he left Islam and informed about his contribution to fabricate the Qur’an with Muhammad; Bukhari informs us that Allah caused him to die.[23]

Greek scientific ideas would also have been passed on to Muhammad by the Jewish community; in fact some of the scientific ideas of the Qur’an, both terminology and chronology, resemble the writings of the Talmud significantly.[24]

A strong notion to this influence upon the author of the Qur’an does not only derive from the presence of the Jewish community, to which Muhammad interacted, but early Jewish converts to Islam. One of these Jewish converts was Abdullah ibn Salim who lived in Medina and was a companion of Muhammad. Qadir, points out that Salim was acquainted with cosmology and even ‘spread his knowledge among the Muslims’.[25]

Based on this information; Muhammad would be acquainted with Christians and Jews who were aware of Greek science; particularly being based in Mecca and then Medina. Additionally, he might presumably possessed insight into the information passed on through centuries of trading, invasions, political interactions and simply information being passed on by travellers, settlers and immigrants.

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[1] Hottinger points out that the Greek philosophy and science was virtually absent from Arabia as fruitful contact between the two worldview was still nonexistent; the Arabic hold upon the Greek heritage was to arrive in the Abbasid era (Arnold Hottinger, The Arabs, Their History, Culture and Place in the Modern World, London: Thames and Hudson, 1963: 80); see also Muzaffar Iqbal, Islam and Science, England, Hampshire, Ashgate Publishing Limited, 2002:6-9; he states that the rapid invasions of nations brought the Muslims in contact with the existent scientific centres of the world

[2] Iqbal, 2002: 1; Iqbal refers to the two advancements as the intellectual (the Qur’an) and the social revolutions (Islam’s expansion).

[3] Maurice Bucaille, The Bible, the Qur’an and Science, Pakistan, Karachi: Idaratul Qur’an, Wa-Uloom – Il Islamia: 1975: 148; here Bucaille emphatically states that Qur’anic science is unique and distinct from any former religion and philosophy

[4] De Lacy O’ Leary: How Greek Science passed to the Arabs, part one, chapter one: Introduction, 1979

[5] C.A. Qadir, Philosophy and Science in the Islamic World, London and New York: Routledge 1990: 15-6; Qadir
comments on this Hadith: ‘In the eyes of the Prophet, knowledge ranked higher than worship.’

[6] al-Tabari vol.1 p.235-236 (Astronomy and the Qur’an, 2005 http://www.muslimhope.com/AstronomyAndTheQuran.htm)

[7] Richard Hooker, World Civilizations: Islam: Pre-Islamic Arabic culture, 1996
(http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ISLAM/PRE.HTM)

[8] D.M. Dunlop, Arab Civilization to AD 1500, Longman, Librairie du Liban, Beirut, 1971: 6-7; musnad means
uncertain, perhaps, set up; which implies their inability to read it; the Delos alters existed already in 2nd century BC
and reveals virtually centuries of trade and interaction between these civilisations. These alters were built to Wadd an
Arabic deity, mentioned in the Qur’an (Sura 71: 23).

[9] Dunlop, 1971: 10; Dunlop states that Meccah was prosperious by contemporary standards, but less significant than
e.g. southern cities such Ma’rib and Ma’in; hence Muhammad was used to city life, not the nomad life.

[10] Qadir, 1990: 34; Greek, Syriac and Persian were the official languages used for administration even beyond the
inauguration of Islam. It was only much later that Muslims demanded Arabic to supplement it with Arabic.

[11] The oasis might have been dominated by the south at least until the sudden decline of political power in Mesopotamia
and South Arabia in the first millennium BC, which not only gave the north Arabians control over these centres but
also mobilized the tribes to expand their control beyond their territory. Later as the Ancient Seleucids Syria turned
politically and militarily weak, the northern Arabs took their advantage and occupied its territories all way north to
Petra and toward the south to Najran; initially they collided with Roman militia (65 BC), who arrived mainly to take
provincial control over Syria; this caused the Arabs to retreat back south (Richard Hooker, World Civilizations:
Islam: Pre-Islamic Arabic culture, 1996; see also O’ Leary, Chapter II: Hellenism in Asia: (1) Hellenization of Syria,
1979

[12] O’ Leary, Chapter II: Hellenism in Asia: (1) Hellenization of Syria, 1979

[13] Richard Hooker, World Civilizations: Islam: Pre-Islamic Arabic culture, 1996

[14] Dunlop, 1971: 7-8; Dunlop refers to the centres of Lakhmids (al-Hira) and Ghassanids (Syria)

[15] Richard Hooker, World Civilizations: Islam: Pre-Islamic Arabic culture, 1996

[16] O’ Leary mentions the city of Hira which had become a centre of great significance; it was the most influential Arab
city located by the Persian border. At the time of Muhammad, the king of Hira, Nu’man embraced the Nestorian type
of Christian faith; see O’Leary, Chapter 3 (3) The Nestorian Schism, 1979) (http://evans-/
experientialism.freewebspace.com/oleary02.htm) (http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/oleary03.htm)

[17] See Qadir, 1990: 31-33 & Iqbal, 2002: 172

[18] Dunlop, 1971: 219 (see also Iqbal, 2002: 39-41): The Persian Jundishapur, is also of importance here as it became a
centre in which Christian and Zoroastrian schools of thought as well as Greek, Syrian, Persian, Hindu and Jewish,
culture and science was accumulated, and its written works translated into various languages. When the school of
Edesse was closed down in the middle of the fifth century, the students fled to e.g. Nisibis in Persia, these impacted
Jurundishapur and the community. Initially in 531-79 AD, ‘Jundishapur was the principal intellectual centre of the
world.’ While no direct connection to Muhammad’s environment has been recorded, it is highly likely due to its
international impact and its proximity, that the intellectuals of Northern Arabia and Christians communities and
monasteries gained a hold on its insight.

[19] Dunlop, 1971: 11; this particular journey occurred in Muhammad’s early years, while he was still married to Khadija

[20] Arthur Jeffery Y, The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur’an, Oriental Institute Baroda, 1938; 71 (Isa); 219 (Qur’an); 233
(Injil). Jeffery assess hundreds Qur’anic terms and traces them back to their Syrian and Aramaic origins. The entire
book can be read on http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/index.htm

[21] Martin Lings, Muhammad, His life based on the earliest Sources, London Unwin Paperbacks, 1986: 80-4; the
accounts describes the early Muslim connection with king Negus in Abyssinia (Ethiopia)

[22] O’Leary, Chapter 4: The Monophysites: 4 Organization of the Monophysite Church, 1979 (http://evans-/
experientialism.freewebspace.com/oleary03.htm): An additional probability of influence upon the environment of
Muhammad was the arrival of run-away Ethiopian slaves. The Ethiopian invasion of Arabia approximately AD 570,
led to the Arabian trend to obtain Ethiopian slaves as mercenaries; several of these later escaped to Medina and joined
Muhammad. Some scholars have suggested that these were the secret teachers (Sura 22: 12), who derived there by
violence and fraud (Sura 25: 5), with foreign tongues (Sura 16: 105) from whom it was suspected that Muhammad
obtained much of his Qur’anic information

[23] Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814: Narrated Anas, Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Translator: M.
Muhsin Khan (http://www.memon.com/HTML/Islam/Bukhari/bukhari.htm)

[24] The Qur’an makes reference to seven heavens and an equal number of earths (65: 12); this number follows in line
with the Talmud; see Aboth D ’Rabbi Nathan, chapter XXXVII, A, Cohen (ed.) The minor Tractates of the Talmud,
Massektoth Ketannot, vol.2, London:
The Soncino Press, 165, 185. For further information on the influence of Greek philosophy on the Jewish community
see Stead Christopher, 1998, in (ed) Craig, Edward, Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Volume 5, London and
New York, Routledge 1998: 819 & Zeller Eduard, Outlines of the History of Greek Philosophy, USA, Cleveland and
New York, Meridian Books/The World Publishing Company, 1963: 277-84

[25] Qadir, 1990: 27; for more information see The Encyclopedia of Islam, New EDN, Vol.1 A-B, edited by an editorial
committee consisting of H.A.R. Gibb, J. H. Kramers, E. Levi-Provencal, J. Schacht, assisted by S.M. Stern as
Secretary General (pp.1-320). B. Lewis, Ch. Pellat and J Schacht, assisted by C. Dumont And R. M. Savory as
editorial secretaries (pp.321-1359), London, Luzac & Co, 1960: 52

www.Answering-Christianity.com is Virus loaded (Warning)

I come across more and more individual Christians and even Muslims who now warn against accessing the website of Osama Abdallah 'Answering-Christianity'.

Some of these raise the concern after suspecting that their computers caught something after having surfed around on the website.

I have to admit that the computer I used late last year did not receive a warning from MacFee in the month of July. However, having said that, others claim still to receive warnings from virus security systems when accessing.

In recent months a number of Christian websites dealing with the religion of Islam have been hacked into and destroyed. Even a number of missionaries have experienced attacks on their own computers.

It seems that the dialogue and debate with islam online has turned into a cyber war.

In fact a number of sources have revealed that a number of well-trained Islamic internet terrorist teams are operating continueally to supress the Christian witness and response online.

The suspicion that Osama Abdallah and his website are included into this sort of internet-Jihad is not to be taken lightly; the warning of internet virsus protection systems are sufficient reason to raise the warning. Furthermore, Osama contiunally invites Christians to enter his website to check out his articles.

I you intend to do so, remember that you have been warned. When you do so, you may expose yourself to Osama and those who co-operate with him. If you are a Christian missionary or debater, you may reveal your personal data, address, phone-number, possibly bank details, etc.

This has already lead to harasment and persecution of Christians in the West.

I want to emphasise again therefore: avoid completely the internet websites of Osama Abdallah and spread the warning.

Did the Christians forget their Covenant? Does it Imply that the Injeel was Corrupted?

My dear brother Ethasham has raised some good questions in some previous threads. I have decided to post some of these issues on separate threads, not to expose or attack Ethasham (in fact these are issue raised by Muslims generally), but so we can effectively deal with these issues separately; otherwise it will extend one thread so heavily that the reader will find it difficult to get along.

In this thread we will look particularly at the Christian covenant. Does the claim of the Qur’an that the Christians forgot parts of the covenant imply that they corrupted the Gospel?

Ethasam Gulam wrote:

As for the Quran 5:13-15, the Christians forgot their covenant as in, they made up certain doctrines, such as the divinity of Jesus, physical resurrection, etc. Also the original gospel was the Q Gospel-- which had sayings of Jesus and not the crucifixion or resurrection narratives. So according to Muslim Scholars-- this points out to the New Testament being corrupted.

Elijah replies:

Firstly Ethasham implies that forgetting some of the covenant implies that the Gospel was corrupted.

Before we look at the covenant let me just raise a few pointers here:

Firstly, the Qur’an is here stating that the Christians forgot some parts of the covenant, it does not say Scripture; there is a clear distinction in Jewish and Christians cicles between these two. God gave scripture to both the Jews and the Christians, yet to forget that covenant or parts of it is not tantamount to forget the Scripture.

Secondly, the Qur’an states that the Christians 'forgot', it does not state that the Christians corrupted. If forgetting is corrupting, how does the Muslim explain Sura 87: 6-7:

• By degrees shall we teach thee (Muhammad) to declare (the message), so thou shalt not forget, except as God wills ... (Sura 87:6-7, Yusuf Ali).

In other words parts of the Qur’an were also forgotten; hence if forgotten is corruption, then the Qur’an is corrupt. In fact forgetting seems to have been a major problem among the early Muslims even in case of Muhammad:

• Narrated Abdullah: The Prophet said, "Why does anyone of the people say, 'I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur'an)?' He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget." (Bukhari: volume 6, book 61, number 559, Khan)

Even Muhammad forgot revelation

• Narrated 'Abdullah: ... (Muhammad said) I am a human being like you and liable to forget like you. So if I forget remind me ... (Bukhari: volume 1, book 8, number 394, Khan)

According to Sahih Muslim 300 reciters had forgotten an entire chapter of the Qur’an which is still missing (Muslim: book 5, number 2286)

Thirdly, the Qur’an states that Christians only forgot a part of the covenant and even though the passage referred to the Injeel it implies that what was not forgotten was retained, which then implies that the Injeel we have today consists of those remaining parts, which then applies that the Injeel we have today is the truth, which would include Jesus death, resurrection and divinity.

Now lets turn to the actual meaning of covenant.

Ethasham claims that the covenant that was partly forgotten was totally corrupted, but can you (Ethasham) define covenant here, what covenant did the Christians supposedly forget?

Let me point out the problem here:

We only read of one covenant, and it is recorded in what you believe to be the earliest gospel, namely Mark’s Gospel.

Notice that many scholars believe Mark to be written 30-35 years after Jesus death, resurrection and ascencion. Some scholars say that Mark was written after years 70 AD, however this conclusion is based upon the humanist notion that miracles cannot occur and since Jesus in all the Synoptic Gospels predicts the fall of Jerusalem, many scholars date them late otherwise miracles occurs and pure naturalism is therefore questionable. These scholars have no other basis behind the conclusion except their own philosophical paradigm of the world, which renders liberal theology a practice of philosophy not as a basis historical studies.

Many Christians would not have a problem believing that Mark was written 60 AD, thirty years after Jesus, however, early tradition states that Mark was written in 50-55 AD, 25 years after Jesus.

So imagine we are here 25-30 years after Jesus ascended to heaven. Peter, Paul, John and many others are still alive; in fact most of the eyewitnesses are still alive at this time.

Furthermore, the church at this time is organised, much like Muslims, Christians are at this time memorizing their tradition (the gospel) orally under the influence of successors, who are either apostles or apostolic disciples (they will do so until 200 AD alongside the written transmission).

In addition the churches worldwide are united and are interactive even at this time.

At this time based upon Papias account who writes in 110 AD (based upon the living and abiding word of Aristion and John the Elder) Peter, the apostle of Jesus is giving his own personal account of the Gospel account in Rome and Mark records it.

Interestingly enough amid all this there is a covenant recognised among Peter and the Christians at this time, only 25-30 years after Jesus’ ascencion. It is recorded in this earliest written gospel, in chapter 14: 23-24:

‘Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it “This is my blood of the covenant ,” he said to them “which is poured out for many”’.

See Gulam this is the covenant and it is based upon the earliest written account of the gospel; it refutes the Qur'anic allegation Christians ever forgot their covenant partly or entirely.

It is interesting because we do based upon early church history know how Christians presereved their information through succession and transmission and how everything was controlled by the apostles and their disciples.

However we also know as Helmut Koester claims in his review of ‘Written gospels or oral traditions’ (Journal of Biblical Literature, Summer94, Vol. 113 Issue 2, p.293) that a third factor was always utilized in early transmission namely a tangible object, which in the Christian circle would be the Eucharist or the consummation of bread and wine to remember Jesus the doctrines, which is what we read off in Mark 14: 23-24.The Christian covenant is therefore according to Jesus' own words as recorded by a the apostle Peter in 55-60 AD based upon the death of Jesus Christ.

That was the covenant as understood by the early apostles. The Qur’an as every Muslim is aware of ascribes great honour to the apostles and describes them as victorious, hence their wording from 60 AD ought to be considered factual and reliable by the Muslim community, that is if they adhere to the Qur'anic teaching.

Revelation Art

I have in the recent months decided to get more into art. To be quite honest I find painting to be the most effective means to let the brain have a break and let the daily stress and tiredness that drains run out of your body.

This my first painting, not completed at all, but at least I got this far. I find the greatest challenge to be mixing the colours and escape the ussual ones. I have to say: considering this being my first actual attempt, I am pretty proud of myself.

Since I am a keen student of the Revelation and the endtime study in the Bible, I somehow decided to draw an endtime event, and I intend to draw a number of endtime events both negative and positive ones; this is certainly a negative one.

It depicts a deep impact from space as recorded in the Book of Revelation, chapter 8, verses 8-10, which records two such events:

'The second angel sounded his trumpet and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood...The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky...'

Scary right. Pretty much the picture we get when we watch movies such as Deep Impact, Armageddon and the yet to come 2012. Well, the impact in the Revelation will however not be of that calibre yet fairly destructive, particularly to the water, sea and sealife.

But I am interested, are there any comments on this picture, on the colours, shadows, I wonder what to do with the background, I guess I have to give the sea a slightly more green colour, and that poor man (well he has had it), I guess his nose became too large.

Then the most important question of all: will it sell? Are you perhaps willing to be the lucky owner, what shall we say 100 pounds, yeah right, lol.

A question for the Muslim

I am puzzled over the use of 'WE' in the Qur'an in which Allah refers to himself in plural form.

I would appreciate it if a Muslim could elaborate on this matter and educate us all where this use of 'WE' originally comes from, what it means, if it was used as such prior to Islam?

Debunking Islam: Islam and the Apostles of Jesus

This will be only a short point made on the modern Muslim view on the Biblical-Christian apostles.

I continue to be amazed by the inconsistency of Islamic apologetics and argumentation. I guess Muslims are aware of the danger posed upon Islam by the fact that early Christianity was organised and led by invidiuals who knew Jesus, who were trained by Jesus and appointed by Jesus.

Particularly damaging for Islam is the fact that the teaching and account of Jesus that we possess today (which is the only Gospel=Injeel) derives from these very individuals, the apostles.

Hence when Christians quote Matthew's Gospel or John's Gospel or the Epistle of First Peter, Muslims are often quick to point out that the apostles were failures and therefore unsuitable as candidates for the transmission of Jesus.

Already here, lays the first problem for the religion of Islam, namely that the information that we possess and that has existed in history that transmits the teaching of Jesus was conveyed to us by these very apostles.

Thus if these were unsuitable, we conclude that the Injeel referred to by the Qur'an is not even worthy of consideration. This is obvious considering that the Qur'an is referring to the same Gospel information that Christians have always possessed; for example it is obvious that the Qur'an mistakenly refers to councelor in John 14: 16 as Muhammad, who then existed in Jesus' time, the Muhammad who lived in the apostles, the Muhammad who is omnipresent, the Muhammad who in the same chapter is joined with the Father and the Son, and the Muhammad who was sent by Jesus.

If the Gospels went through seventy years of corruptive process and were embellished as Shabir Ally so often exclaims I find it funny that this very passage is not found in Mark's Gospel but rather in the Gospel to which Muslims ascribe the ultimate corruption (Another serious blunder for the Qur'an and modern Islamic apologists).

Hence we know that the Qur'an is here referring to e.g. John's Gospel, which Muslims consider a fabrication, lol, don't ask me how they manage to thrive in such confusion.

Secondly, Muslims tend to reject the apostles due to their immaturity as described in the Gospels. A Muslim I argued with lately referred to Mark 8: 33 where Jesus says to Peter: 'Get behind me satan...you do not have in mind the things of God but the things of men'.

This particular Muslim assumed that Peter was develish and his epistles and contribution to the Gospel transmission would therefore have to be categorized invalid, after all how are we to take a individual seriously whom Jesus himself has named 'devil'.

Three problem arise here with this methodology:

Firstly, Muhammad himself can hardly be considered mature prior to or while being a prophet of God. He doubted God's revelation, attempted suicide (Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 111), received and transmitted revelation from Satan demanding worship of idols (Sura 22: 52-53), not to speak of the illicit behaviour on the maritial and sexual level.

If Muslims have no problem in seeing Muhammad as a valid prophet, I am astonished that they can reject Peter as an apostle of God.

Secondly, the passage describes Peter while still being instructed as a disciple, in other words Peter is still immature and slightly ignorant. In fact the immaturity of the apostles was a favorite argument of the second century Gnostic adheres, an argument that was effectively refuted by Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian and Origin.

Thirdly, why is Peter categorized as a devil in this passage, I guess my Muslim friend failed to read the passage fully. Well, Peter was in this context harshly rebuked by Jesus since he objected to Jesus' death and resurrection which both contradict the teachings of the Qur'an.

In other words the passage describes here every Muslim and any individual who objects to the death and suffering of Jesus. I must say utilizing this argument from a Muslim point of view is shooting the entire foot off.

I remember Ayaz in our Birmingham Debate in 2008 qouted Thomas in John 14, where Thomas appears not to know the way to God. I find it funny that here we have yet another Muslim debater who fails to realize that the disciples of Jesus at this point do not possess the fullness of understanding which they were to possess later.

Fourthly, I guess Muslims not only fail to understand the Bible, they either deliberately or out of ignorance fail to understand their own book, the Qur'an.

According to the Qur'an the Apostles were not at all invalid or unsuccessful or failures; the Qur'an declares that the apostles of Jesus were Muslims:

When Jesus found unbelief on their part, he said: ‘who will be my helpers to (the work of ) Allah?’ Said the disciples: ‘We are Allah’s helpers: we believe in Allah and do you bear witness that we are Muslims. Our Lord! We believe in what you have revealed, and we follow the messenger, then write us down among those who bear witness’ (3: 53-4)

The Apostles according to this passage are those who bear witness and the Gospels we possess today and which the Qur'an (but not the follower of the Qur'an) confirms as valid is their testimony (How can Muslims today reject these previous revelations and still claim to be believers and faithful students devoted to the Qur'an?).

Secondly, the Qur'an declares that the followers of Jesus in contrast to the rest of Israel were victorious:

O you who believe! Be you helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to his disciples, “who will be my helpers (to the work) Allah?” Said the disiciples, “We are Allah’s helpers!” Then a portion of the children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but we gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed (Sura 6: 14)

Conclusion:

The apostles when succeeding the Jesus in transmitting his teaching and account had matured in every way in stark contrast to the Gospels

The immaturity of the disciples in the Gospels is tantamount to the adherer of the Islamic doctrine.

The Qur'an praises the contribution of the apostles.

There to my Muslim readers, if you deprive the apostles of Jesus off the status ascribed upon them by both the Bible and the Qur'an you object to the Qur'an. On the other hand if you choose obedience to your book you accept their testimony, which is the Gospels and hence you cannot be a Muslim.

Oh come on, that cant be so difficult or is it?

Islam on Decline

Is Islam on decline?

It has become a normalcy to portray Islam as a growing religion, yet my own observation reveals that Islam may also be heading toward serious era of decline. This is hardly mentioned in todays assessments of Islamic statistics.

Why do I say this? Well among Muslims secularism is seriously on the rise, many of the Muslims I speak to here in the UK complain that mosque attendance is declining, furthermore it is heartbreaking to see the hight percentage of Muslim youth ending up in drugs and crime. The only individual ever trying to sell me drugs was an Arabic Muslim. Muslim youth in my area behave as indicently as the secular youth, sleeping around, following the worldly path and selling drugs for sex with white girls.

We may also take into consideration conversion and apostacy in Islam. It is estimated that two- thirds or more of those embracing Islam leave Islam unsatisfied or unsuccessful. On the other hand, as Christians we see currently a flux into the Christian fold from the Muslim community.

Recent statistic reveals that currently there are 20 million ex-Muslims who have embraced the Christian faith and this is only the beginning. This is also the impression I get here in UK. Only four years ago you hardly met or heard of Muslim converts to Christianity in UK, now we meet them everywhere, and that's not all, even more surprisingly is the number of Muslims we meet who are interested in becoming followers of Jesus Christ.

This begs the question: were missionary experts correct in their prediction that the world is now heading toward a Christian revival among the muslims, both within the Western Muslim community and in the Muslim world? Is God at the moment preparing the way for such a global occurance?

Well, consider this, not only is it the number of converts to Christianity, which on the rise everywhere in the Muslim world, but there is also a common experience shared by hundreds of thousands of Muslims globally in which they receive dreams and visions of the Biblical Jesus Christ revealing to them that he is the Son of God and that their faith in Islam is false.

Missionaries have recently discovered this phenomena among entire groups of Muslim children who experience this mutually.

My conclusion, Islam may decline or expand its growth and influence, it may even be the fulfilment of the Beast predicted in the Book of Revelation whose influence and powers were triggered by a false prophet, however, God and his people will remain victorious and influential even as lambs among the wolves to the very end of age, and the Christian harvest among the one billion global Muslim community has just begun.

It also concludes that the actual real muslims among the over all Muslim community might soon be as tiny as the hard core evangelical population of UK compared to the over all population.

It is needless for me to say however, that nobody can be a real Muslim as should be obvious to anyone engaging in a indepth study of the Qur'an.